[SOLVED]Lost ISPConfig Panel AFTER "Update the ISPConfig Perfect Server from Debian 11 to Debian 12"

Discussion in 'Installation/Configuration' started by Elvé, Sep 19, 2023.

  1. Elvé

    Elvé New Member

    Hello,
    Thank you in advance to read me. Any help will appreciated to solve this access problem to ISPConfig Panel.

    1/ INTRODUCTION :
    TWO servers are involved : master ( with ispconfig panel included and DNS service ) and slave ( DNS service only ).
    The 2 servers should "only" provide DNS services via BIND.
    Before start the upgrade the ISPConfig web panel was running on port 81. ( not 8081 )

    2/ WHAT I HAVE DONE BEFORE THE PROBLEM APPEARS :
    ON THE SLAVE SERVER : i followed this guide "Update the ISPConfig Perfect Server from Debian 11 to Debian 12" to upgrade ISPConfig 3.2.11 which was on debian 11
    ( the first installation was from 2017 probably on debian 9. All the upgrades since those period were fine without problem.)

    ON THE MASTER SERVER : same process than on the SLAVE.

    3/ WHAT i OBSERVE AFTER upgrade :
    THE ACCESS to the ISPConfig panel was not possible. I was only able to acces to apache default page !

    4/ WHAT i HAVE DONE on the server to try to solve the problem :
    a/ Since the ispconfig service was running on the 81 port before upgrade when the default is 8081, i have made modification to make apache listen on 8081.

    b/ On the master server into file /etc/apache2/apache2.conf i find this 2 lines :

    line 1 : # Include the virtual host configurations:
    line 2 : IncludeOptional sites-enabled/*.conf

    On the master server into file /etc/apache2/apache2.conf.dpkg-old :
    line 1 : # Include the virtual host configurations:
    line 2 : IncludeOptional sites-enabled/

    Since file with ".vhost" (the one associated to ISPConfig panel i think ?!? ) exists i have replace
    line 2 : IncludeOptional sites-enabled/*.conf
    BY
    line 2 : IncludeOptional sites-enabled/ into /etc/apache2/apache2.conf/ AND restart apache2.

    I have also suppress the LISTEN line into several "conf" and "vhost" files since it was generate appache2 error logs.

    Into "/etc/apache2/sites-available " : the following files are availables :
    Code:
    000-default.conf
    acme.conf
    apps.vhost
    default-ssl.conf
    ispconfig.conf
    ispconfig.vhost
    
    THE FACT THAT 2 files with ISPCONFIG name exist let me wonder if it is "normal" or not in my case ?

    The result of the command : journalctl -xeu apache2.service
    Code:
    RESULT :
    ░░ L'unité (unit) apache2.service a commencé à recharger sa configuration.
    sep 19 11:31:19 master apachectl[194310]: AH00548: NameVirtualHost has no effect and will be removed in the next release /etc/apache2/sites-enabled/000-ispconfig.vhost:7
    sep 19 11:31:19 master systemd[1]: Reloaded apache2.service - The Apache HTTP Server.
    ░░ Subject: L'unité (unit) apache2.service a terminé de recharger configuration
    ░░ Defined-By: systemd
    
    ispconfig.vhost is the following :
    Code:
    ######################################################
    # This virtual host contains the configuration
    # for the ISPConfig controlpanel
    ######################################################
    
    ##Listen 8081
    NameVirtualHost *:8081
    
    <VirtualHost _default_:8081>
      ServerAdmin webmaster@localhost
    
      Alias /mail /var/www/ispconfig/mail
    
      <Directory /var/www/ispconfig/>
        <FilesMatch "\.ph(p3?|tml)$">
          SetHandler None
        </FilesMatch>
      </Directory>
      <Directory /usr/local/ispconfig/interface/web/>
        <FilesMatch "\.ph(p3?|tml)$">
          SetHandler None
        </FilesMatch>
      </Directory>
    
      <IfModule mod_fcgid.c>
        DocumentRoot /var/www/ispconfig/
        SuexecUserGroup ispconfig ispconfig
        <Directory /var/www/ispconfig/>
          Options -Indexes +FollowSymLinks +MultiViews +ExecCGI
          AllowOverride AuthConfig Indexes Limit Options FileInfo
          <FilesMatch "\.php$">
          SetHandler fcgid-script
          </FilesMatch>
          FCGIWrapper /var/www/php-fcgi-scripts/ispconfig/.php-fcgi-starter .php
                Require all granted
              </Directory>
        IPCCommTimeout  7200
        MaxRequestLen 15728640
      </IfModule>
    
      <IfModule mpm_itk_module>
        DocumentRoot /usr/local/ispconfig/interface/web/
        AssignUserId ispconfig ispconfig
        AddType application/x-httpd-php .php
        <Directory /usr/local/ispconfig/interface/web>
          # php_admin_value open_basedir "/usr/local/ispconfig/interface:/usr/share:/tmp"
          Options +FollowSymLinks
          AllowOverride None
                Require all granted
                php_value magic_quotes_gpc        0
        </Directory>
      </IfModule>
    
      # ErrorLog /var/log/apache2/error.log
      # CustomLog /var/log/apache2/access.log combined
      ServerSignature Off
    
      <IfModule mod_security2.c>
        SecRuleEngine Off
      </IfModule>
    
      # SSL Configuration
      SSLEngine On
        SSLProtocol All -SSLv3 -TLSv1 -TLSv1.1
        SSLCertificateFile /usr/local/ispconfig/interface/ssl/ispserver.crt
      SSLCertificateKeyFile /usr/local/ispconfig/interface/ssl/ispserver.key
    
      #SSLCACertificateFile /usr/local/ispconfig/interface/ssl/ispserver.bundle
    
      SSLCipherSuite ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:ECDHE-ECDSA-AES256-GCM-S>
      SSLHonorCipherOrder On
      <IfModule mod_headers.c>
        # ISPConfig 3.1 currently requires unsafe-line for both scripts and styles, as well as unsafe-e>
        Header set Content-Security-Policy "default-src 'self' 'unsafe-inline' 'unsafe-eval'; img-src '>
        Header set Content-Security-Policy "default-src 'self' 'unsafe-inline' 'unsafe-eval'; img-src '>
        Header set X-Content-Type-Options: nosniff
        Header set X-Frame-Options: SAMEORIGIN
        Header set X-XSS-Protection: "1; mode=block"
        Header always edit Set-Cookie (.*) "$1; HTTPOnly"
        Header always edit Set-Cookie (.*) "$1; Secure"
        <IfVersion >= 2.4.7>
            Header setifempty Strict-Transport-Security "max-age=15768000"
        </IfVersion>
        <IfVersion < 2.4.7>
            Header set Strict-Transport-Security "max-age=15768000"
        </IfVersion>
        RequestHeader unset Proxy early
      </IfModule>
    
        SSLUseStapling On
      SSLStaplingResponderTimeout 5
      SSLStaplingReturnResponderErrors Off
    
      # Redirect http to https
      ErrorDocument 400 "<script>document.location.href='REPLACED CAUSE NOT ALLOW TO POST'>
    
    </VirtualHost>
    
    
    5/ WHERE i am at the moment and ask for helps or idea via this post :

    access via port 8081 : with the DNS name
    RESULT :
    Forbidden
    You don't have permission to access this resource.


    access via port 80 : with the DNS name
    RESULT :
    default apache page.

    6/ WHAT i have done BEFORE posting : ( done on the MASTER server where the ISPConfig Panel should works. )
    Code:
    -*-*-*-*
    command : php -v
    RESULT :
    PHP 8.2.7 (cli) (built: Jun  9 2023 19:37:27) (NTS)
    Copyright (c) The PHP Group
    Zend Engine v4.2.7, Copyright (c) Zend Technologies
        with Zend OPcache v8.2.7, Copyright (c), by Zend Technologies
      
    -*-*-*-*
    command : lsb_release -a  
    RESULT :  
    No LSB modules are available.
    Distributor ID: Debian
    Description:    Debian GNU/Linux 12 (bookworm)
    Release:        12
    Codename:       bookworm
    
    -*-*-*-*
    command : wget -q -O htf-common-issues.php .............
    RESULT :
    ##### SERVER #####
    IP-address (as per hostname): ***.***.***.***
    [WARN] could not determine server's ip address by ifconfig
    [INFO] OS version is Debian GNU/Linux 12 (bookworm)
    
    [INFO] uptime:  12:58:05 up 2 days, 14:05,  1 user,  load average: 0,11, 0,07, 0,08
    
    [INFO] memory:
                   total       utilisé      libre     partagé tamp/cache   disponible
    Mem:           3,8Gi       862Mi       2,2Gi        18Mi       1,1Gi       3,0Gi
    Échange:       4,0Gi          0B       4,0Gi
    
    [INFO] systemd failed services status:
      UNIT LOAD ACTIVE SUB DESCRIPTION
    0 loaded units listed.
    
    [INFO] ISPConfig is installed.
    
    ##### ISPCONFIG #####
    ISPConfig version is 3.2.11
    
    
    ##### VERSION CHECK #####
    
    [INFO] php (cli) version is 8.2.7
    [INFO] php-cgi (used for cgi php in default vhost!) is version 8.2.7
    
    ##### PORT CHECK #####
    
    [WARN] Port 8080 (ISPConfig) seems NOT to be listening
    [WARN] Port 143 (IMAP server) seems NOT to be listening
    [WARN] Port 993 (IMAP server SSL) seems NOT to be listening
    [WARN] Port 110 (POP3 server) seems NOT to be listening
    [WARN] Port 995 (POP3 server SSL) seems NOT to be listening
    [WARN] Port 465 (SMTP server SSL) seems NOT to be listening
    [WARN] Port 21 (FTP server) seems NOT to be listening
    [WARN] Port 22 (SSH server) seems NOT to be listening
    
    ##### MAIL SERVER CHECK #####
    
    [WARN] I found no "smtp" entry in your postfix master.cf
    [WARN] I found no "submission" entry in your postfix master.cf
    [INFO] this is not critical, but if you want to offer port 587 for smtp connections you have to enab
    le this.
    [WARN] I found no "smtps" entry in your postfix master.cf
    [INFO] this is not critical, but if you want to offer SSL for smtp (not TLS) connections you have to
     enable this.
    
    ##### RUNNING SERVER PROCESSES #####
    
    [INFO] I found the following web server(s):
            Apache 2 (PID 195315)
    [INFO] I found the following mail server(s):
            Exim (PID 1032)
    [WARN] I could not determine which pop3 server is running.
    [WARN] I could not determine which imap server is running.
    [WARN] I could not determine which ftp server is running.
    
    ##### LISTENING PORTS #####
    (seulement              ()
    Adresse         (distante)
    [anywhere]:3306         (182917/mariadbd)
    [localhost]:953         (425/named)
    [localhost]:953         (425/named)
    [localhost]:11211               (420/memcached)
    ***.***.***.***:18              (467/sshd:)
    ***.***.***.***:53              (425/named)
    ***.***.***.***:53              (425/named)
    [localhost]:25          (1032/exim4)
    [localhost]:53          (425/named)
    [localhost]:53          (425/named)
    *:*:*:*::*:80           (195315/apache2)
    *:*:*:*::*:443          (195315/apache2)
    *:*:*:*::*:25           (1032/exim4)
    *:*:*:*::*:4949         (463/perl)
    *:*:*:*::*:3306         (182917/mariadbd)
    *:*:*:*::*:8081         (195315/apache2)
    
    
    
    
    ##### IPTABLES #####
    
    
    
    
    ##### LET'S ENCRYPT #####
    Certbot is installed in /usr/bin/letsencrypt
    
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 20, 2023
  2. Th0m

    Th0m ISPConfig Developer Staff Member ISPConfig Developer

    I have edited your post to use CODE tags - this increases readability. We already asked you to do this in the Read before posting.

    Can you share the full content of /etc/apache2/apache2.conf ?
     
    Elvé likes this.
  3. ahrasis

    ahrasis Well-Known Member HowtoForge Supporter

    Actual default port for ISPConfig is 8080, so I think the fault could be because two ports 8081 existed i.e. one for ispconfig and another for apps vhost?

    Did you run apache2ctl -t to check your apache2 config?
     
  4. Elvé

    Elvé New Member

    Hi ThOm, Hi ahrasis,

    Thank you for your reply. I am sorry for the presentation into my posting. I have no excuse for that other that the fact i am not fluent this this sort of publication tool. I am going to do my best and ask you to forgive me if i do other mistakes.

    -1- I reply to ThOm : Yes I can share /etc/apache2/apache2.conf . Here it is :

    Code:
    # This is the main Apache server configuration file.  It contains the
    # configuration directives that give the server its instructions.
    # See http://httpd.apache.org/docs/2.4/ for detailed information about
    # the directives and /usr/share/doc/apache2/README.Debian about Debian specific
    # hints.
    #
    #
    # Summary of how the Apache 2 configuration works in Debian:
    # The Apache 2 web server configuration in Debian is quite different to
    # upstream's suggested way to configure the web server. This is because Debian's
    # default Apache2 installation attempts to make adding and removing modules,
    # virtual hosts, and extra configuration directives as flexible as possible, in
    # order to make automating the changes and administering the server as easy as
    # possible.
    
    # It is split into several files forming the configuration hierarchy outlined
    # below, all located in the /etc/apache2/ directory:
    #
    #       /etc/apache2/
    #       |-- apache2.conf
    #       |       `--  ports.conf
    #       |-- mods-enabled
    #       |       |-- *.load
    #       |       `-- *.conf
    #       |-- conf-enabled
    #       |       `-- *.conf
    #       `-- sites-enabled
    #               `-- *.conf
    #
    #
    # * apache2.conf is the main configuration file (this file). It puts the pieces
    #   together by including all remaining configuration files when starting up the
    #   web server.
    #
    # * ports.conf is always included from the main configuration file. It is
    #   supposed to determine listening ports for incoming connections which can be
    #   customized anytime.
    #
    # * Configuration files in the mods-enabled/, conf-enabled/ and sites-enabled/
    #   directories contain particular configuration snippets which manage modules,
    #   global configuration fragments, or virtual host configurations,
    #   respectively.
    #
    #   They are activated by symlinking available configuration files from their
    #   respective *-available/ counterparts. These should be managed by using our
    #   helpers a2enmod/a2dismod, a2ensite/a2dissite and a2enconf/a2disconf. See
    #   their respective man pages for detailed information.
    #
    # * The binary is called apache2. Due to the use of environment variables, in
    #   the default configuration, apache2 needs to be started/stopped with
    #   /etc/init.d/apache2 or apache2ctl. Calling /usr/bin/apache2 directly will not
    #   work with the default configuration.
    
    
    # Global configuration
    #
    
    #
    # ServerRoot: The top of the directory tree under which the server's
    # configuration, error, and log files are kept.
    #
    # NOTE!  If you intend to place this on an NFS (or otherwise network)
    # mounted filesystem then please read the Mutex documentation (available
    # at <URL:http://httpd.apache.org/docs/2.4/mod/core.html#mutex>);
    # you will save yourself a lot of trouble.
    #
    # Do NOT add a slash at the end of the directory path.
    #
    #ServerRoot "/etc/apache2"
    
    #
    # The accept serialization lock file MUST BE STORED ON A LOCAL DISK.
    #
    #Mutex file:${APACHE_LOCK_DIR} default
    
    #
    # The directory where shm and other runtime files will be stored.
    #
    
    DefaultRuntimeDir ${APACHE_RUN_DIR}
    
    #
    # PidFile: The file in which the server should record its process
    # identification number when it starts.
    # This needs to be set in /etc/apache2/envvars
    #
    PidFile ${APACHE_PID_FILE}
    
    #
    # Timeout: The number of seconds before receives and sends time out.
    #
    Timeout 300
    
    #
    # KeepAlive: Whether or not to allow persistent connections (more than
    # one request per connection). Set to "Off" to deactivate.
    #
    KeepAlive On
    
    #
    # MaxKeepAliveRequests: The maximum number of requests to allow
    # during a persistent connection. Set to 0 to allow an unlimited amount.
    # We recommend you leave this number high, for maximum performance.
    #
    MaxKeepAliveRequests 100
    
    #
    # KeepAliveTimeout: Number of seconds to wait for the next request from the
    # same client on the same connection.
    #
    KeepAliveTimeout 5
    
    
    # These need to be set in /etc/apache2/envvars
    User ${APACHE_RUN_USER}
    Group ${APACHE_RUN_GROUP}
    
    #
    # HostnameLookups: Log the names of clients or just their IP addresses
    # e.g., www.apache.org (on) or 204.62.129.132 (off).
    # The default is off because it'd be overall better for the net if people
    # had to knowingly turn this feature on, since enabling it means that
    # each client request will result in AT LEAST one lookup request to the
    # nameserver.
    #
    HostnameLookups Off
    
    # ErrorLog: The location of the error log file.
    # If you do not specify an ErrorLog directive within a <VirtualHost>
    # container, error messages relating to that virtual host will be
    # logged here.  If you *do* define an error logfile for a <VirtualHost>
    # container, that host's errors will be logged there and not here.
    #
    ErrorLog ${APACHE_LOG_DIR}/error.log
    
    #
    # LogLevel: Control the severity of messages logged to the error_log.
    # Available values: trace8, ..., trace1, debug, info, notice, warn,
    # error, crit, alert, emerg.
    # It is also possible to configure the log level for particular modules, e.g.
    # "LogLevel info ssl:warn"
    #
    LogLevel warn
    
    # Include module configuration:
    IncludeOptional mods-enabled/*.load
    IncludeOptional mods-enabled/*.conf
    
    # Include list of ports to listen on
    Include ports.conf
    
    
    # Sets the default security model of the Apache2 HTTPD server. It does
    # not allow access to the root filesystem outside of /usr/share and /var/www.
    # The former is used by web applications packaged in Debian,
    # the latter may be used for local directories served by the web server. If
    # your system is serving content from a sub-directory in /srv you must allow
    # access here, or in any related virtual host.
    <Directory />
            Options FollowSymLinks
            AllowOverride None
            Require all denied
    </Directory>
    
    <Directory /usr/share>
            AllowOverride None
            Require all granted
    </Directory>
    
    <Directory /var/www/>
            Options Indexes FollowSymLinks
            AllowOverride None
            Require all granted
    </Directory>
    
    #<Directory /srv/>
    #       Options Indexes FollowSymLinks
    #       AllowOverride None
    #       Require all granted
    #</Directory>
    
    
    
    
    # AccessFileName: The name of the file to look for in each directory
    # for additional configuration directives.  See also the AllowOverride
    # directive.
    #
    AccessFileName .htaccess
    
    #
    # The following lines prevent .htaccess and .htpasswd files from being
    # viewed by Web clients.
    #
    <FilesMatch "^\.ht">
            Require all denied
    </FilesMatch>
    
    
    #
    # The following directives define some format nicknames for use with
    # a CustomLog directive.
    #
    # These deviate from the Common Log Format definitions in that they use %O
    # (the actual bytes sent including headers) instead of %b (the size of the
    # requested file), because the latter makes it impossible to detect partial
    # requests.
    #
    # Note that the use of %{X-Forwarded-For}i instead of %h is not recommended.
    # Use mod_remoteip instead.
    #
    LogFormat "%v:%p %h %l %u %t \"%r\" %>s %O \"%{Referer}i\" \"%{User-Agent}i\"" vhost_combined
    LogFormat "%h %l %u %t \"%r\" %>s %O \"%{Referer}i\" \"%{User-Agent}i\"" combined
    LogFormat "%h %l %u %t \"%r\" %>s %O" common
    LogFormat "%{Referer}i -> %U" referer
    LogFormat "%{User-agent}i" agent
    
    # Include of directories ignores editors' and dpkg's backup files,
    # see README.Debian for details.
    
    # Include generic snippets of statements
    IncludeOptional conf-enabled/*.conf
    
    # Include the virtual host configurations:
    ##IncludeOptional sites-enabled/*.conf
    IncludeOptional sites-enabled/

    -2- Now i reply to aharis : The result of the following command : " apache2ctl -t " is :
    Code:
    AH00548: NameVirtualHost has no effect and will be removed in the next release /etc/apache2/sites-enabled/000-ispconfig.vhost:7
    Syntax OK

    -3- What i have try between my fisrt post and this reply :
    I have tried to isolate an eventual SSL problem or misconfiguration. Therefore i have modify SSLEngine from ON to OFF into :
    "/etc/apache2/sites-available/apps.vhost"
    AND
    "/etc/apache2/sites-available/ispconfig.vhost"
    ## SSLEngine On
    ##
    SSLEngine Off

    -4- Concerning the ports modification here is the "/etc/apache2/ports.conf " details :

    Code:
    Listen 80
    <IfModule ssl_module>
            Listen 443
            Listen 8081
    </IfModule>
    
    <IfModule mod_gnutls.c>
            Listen 443
            Listen 8081
    </IfModule>
    Well during to ispconfig "force" update i suppose that something may going wrong cause of me ?!?
    Nethertheless thank you in advance for your lights if you get any.
    Regards.
    Elvé

     
  5. till

    till Super Moderator Staff Member ISPConfig Developer

    I guess the person that initially set up this system did some manual changes and missed making these in a update-safe way. There is also some confusion about the port numbers. E.g. this assumption you made is wrong:

    ISPConfig itself is using port 8080 by default, it does not use port 8081. Port 8081 is the so-called apps vhost, it is used to run tools like phpmyadmin or RoundCube webmin. ISPConfig itself does not run on port 8081.

    The listen directive for port 8081 (the apps vhost) is in the apps vhost file, not in ports.conf. If you add it to ports.conf, apache will fail to start, so you must remove it from ports.conf

    You said that your ISConfig was set up to work on port 81, this means you must take a look into the ispconfig.vhost file and ensure that the port that is used there in the listen directive and the vhost is 81 and not 8080.
     
    Elvé and ahrasis like this.
  6. ahrasis

    ahrasis Well-Known Member HowtoForge Supporter

    In these two files, on the top, what port each is listening to?
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2023
    Elvé likes this.
  7. Elvé

    Elvé New Member

    Hi till, Hi ahrasis, Hi ThOm,

    Thank to all off you the problem has been solved.

    I am going to give details to maybe help other in similar case :

    -1- Thanks to ThOm question : " you may have to verify that the " /etc/apache2/apache2.conf " ( post 2 )
    i have verify that those file include a line
    " IncludeOptional sites-enabled/ "
    and NOT a line like " IncludeOptional sites-enabled/*.conf "
    in case NOT the files ispconfig.vhost and apps.vhost will NOT be loaded by appache2 server i guess since the extention ".vhost" is different from extention ".conf".


    -2- Thank to ahrasis, i was wondering concerning the port configuration.
    ahrasis tall me than appache2 should NOT run with apps and ispconfig file configured on the SAME listening port. ( post 3 )

    Since appache2 stop and start without problem i have been perplex but his remark was 100% right.
    In fact apache2 was stop and start fine cause i had added the 8081 listener into "/etc/apache2/ports.conf " and SUPPRESS the Listen command into "ispconfig.vhost" and "apps.vhost" files. A big mistakes from me !

    -3- Thank to till i have made the link between ahrasis remarks and clear till explanations of the ports attribution.

    As consequence i have do the following to solve the ( my personel ) problem since till has 100% right on the fact that the default ports have been modified during the life of this server ( 2017 to now ) by administrators and, i had made a wrong assumption concerning the ports attribution of ISPConfig.


    As conclusion i have modified the following files has details below :
    -A-

    /etc/apache2/sites-available/apps.vhost

    Code:
    ######################################################
    # This virtual host contains the configuration
    # for the ISPConfig apps vhost
    ######################################################
    Listen 8081
    <VirtualHost _default_:8081>
    .....
    keep the rest intact 
    
    -B-
    /etc/apache2/sites-available/ispconfig.vhost
    Code:
    ######################################################
    # This virtual host contains the configuration
    # for the ISPConfig controlpanel
    ######################################################
    Listen 8080
    <VirtualHost _default_:8080>
    .....
    keep the rest intact
    
    -C-
    /etc/apache2/ports.conf
    Code:
    # If you just change the port or add more ports here, you will likely also
    # have to change the VirtualHost statement in
    # /etc/apache2/sites-enabled/000-default.conf
    
    Listen 80
    <IfModule ssl_module>
            Listen 443
    </IfModule>
    
    <IfModule mod_gnutls.c>
            Listen 443
    </IfModule>

    -D- after those modifications i have launched the following command:
    /etc/init.d/apache2 restart


    After that modifications "ALL has been SOLVED".
    I am now able to acces the ISPCONFIG PANEL via http://MyDNS-hostname:8080


    CONCLUSION :

    Thank you VERY much to all of you for this smart and efficient assistance.
    Best Regards

    Elvé
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2023
    Th0m, ahrasis and till like this.

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